Fools rush in where Drow should fear to tread

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

Evil, as a major descriptor of the behaviour of a race or individual is an unhelpful, limiting and frankly unrealistic term.


Hobgoblins are a Cruel, expansionistic military society that brutalises and subjugates Non-Hobgoblins and neighboring settlements/civilisations as a way of life. Hobgoblins are however, highly ordered and work well together.

Drow are a Matriarchal society that has firmly embraced the 'Dead Mans Shoes' form of advancement. They are decadent and corrupt, and scheming. Loyalty is primarily to the self, but closely thereafter to their House. If Drow society is put under enough external pressure, they are quite capable of working together to destroy the external factor. Despite a tendancy to treachery, there are many checks and balances built into Drow society that have prevented it from collapsing.

To my mind, such descriptions are much more useful and balanced than throwing around alignment terms.

I never claimed that anyone would be volunteering down at the Homeless shelter, or knitting a jumper for granny (who does get sooo cold) in their spare time. I did, quite rightly, point out that even hobgoblins are capable of adult social interactions and being 'evil' does not mean you can't have friends.

I don't see the problem.

A thing to remember, also, in relation to the above; The topic starts with Rapple claiming never to have had a friend. I pointed out that he's part of a close-nit military society (That has, through drow manipulation, had the self-importance and the holiness of expansionism a little scaled back). If he's capable of forming or appreciating friendships, he would already have done so.

Do you actually disagree with this?

[morgalahan]

Don't forget that we're playing in a fantasy setting where evil is a very real thing, and may even be personified in some cases. By describing the outlook of a race as evil, it's simply a description any elf, dwarf, human, halfling etc would use in this instance. I know that generalizing something as 'evil' doesnt do justice to the many complexities of existence, but I gave descriptions of what I meant.

What annoyed me was that you ignored what I said and simply said 'alignments are meaningless' which in general terms I do agree with. The thing is, alignments are guidelines, much as Barbosa said. They indicate the general behavior and attitude of a race, creature or person. They are not gospel. I would classify the Drow as a chaotic evil race, and the Hobgoblins as a lawful evil race. Just as my own personal way of categorizing. Not as a game mechanic. It felt like you were simply dismissing my words as irrelevant because you thought I was arguing alignment, which I was not.

I agree with your descriptions of both races, and yes just because you're evil doesn't mean you can't make friends. I'm sure Sauron had regular bookclub meetings over wine and cheese. 

The way I see it is that the terms 'good', 'neutral' and 'evil' are merely indications of likely behavior and general outlook. It's likely that you'd find tolkien-esque elves ignoring the plight of homeless and starving humans simply because they are trespassing in forests guarded by elves. You might also find a goblin who's rescued a kitten and now cares for it and loves it. But I would still describe the goblins as evil and the elves as good, as a race, simply because the goblin is likely to leave the kitten at home to go off and raid a halfling village, killing everyone and looting their corpses, while the elves are likely to go off and fight an army of orcs attacking human settlements.

Also, as a rule, Drow have been corrupted by Lolth to the degree that they do not consider themselves to be evil, they consider the surface elves to be. Hobgoblins also would probably not consider themselves to be evil, and are quite capable of justifying their actions, even when killing newborns. That doesnt mean anyone else wouldnt consider them to be evil.

At any rate, I agree that Rapple could have made a friend in his sergeant, but would probably not care about him dying. You do get a certain mindset that simply does not understand how to care about others. I think Chris' portrayal of Rapple is rather accurate in his nonchalance over his underling's death. Friendship in this instance would mean 'what you can do for me, and what I can do for you', not love and trust.

I really like it when, in neverwinter nights 2, how you play your character and what choices you make effect your alignment, not the other way around. In this regard, I really like the alignment rules.

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

You'll have to excuse me, but I've really lost track of what you're actually disagreeing with me about?

Oh, and wether or not Rapple would care, is entirely up to Chris. Given that from ONE MEETING with the Lich, he feels even remotely unhappy about fighting him due to the implied ancient bonds of friendship, well.

[morgalahan]

meh, I'm disagreeing with you dismissing alignments and the picture you paint of hobgoblins in general.

Whatever, I was just upset with the way you ignored my words and saw only 'alignment'. I really don't like being ignored.

And also with this:

'And if he's come up through the Hobgoblin ranks, he'd have literally squads full of friends, given the closeness of military types and the idolising of comradery. That guy who you tried to leave behind facing the goblins, after the cave-in? Probably grew up with you, knew you since you were a pup. You and he excelled in life, and made it to the rank of Seargent, but you'd have likely been close to everyone in your old squad, and it's quite reasonable to expect you are still frequently in touch with any that weren't stationed in the Spire.

If they were stationed in the spire, then any such friends are Dead. Directly because of the Lich.

And why else would a Hobgoblin consider turning traitor at all, except because of an unmanly fear of death? To desert ones colleagues in the face of unsurmountable odds is to take a knife to their backs!'

Your idea that the hobgoblins would never consider disobeying the drow in order to gain personal power. I don't consider that to be true at all.

But it's more of a debate actually, about fantasy races and values. The thing is that I personally believe in good and evil. Not the blind versions. I don't really want to go more in depth about that, but my beliefs are detailed above in my previous posts.

My knee jerk reactions to your 'alignments are meaningless' post was annoyance and frankly hurt, that you seemed to dismiss my words so easily. *shrug* I'm not trying to provoke fights, but your current attitude feels hostile to me, probably due the fact that text has no personality and you can't judge tone of voice. Just ignore it, I don't consider online arguments to have any impact on how I would treat you when next I see you. There will be no arguments. I enjoy debating this sort of thing.

Bottom line is, I believe in good and evil and I like the alignment system.

[EvilGinger]

OK can we stop getting angry or even mildly irritated about a GAME and as such has no significance what so ever in the greater scheme of things. Thank you /mod

apart form that I feel that we are getting a bit off topic going into a discussion about DAT's character and his actions and broadening it into a discussion of alignment in D&D a subject which has had far too much ink spilt in vain IMO and one of my reasons for quite liking the current 4e alignment system.

feel free to start separate threads about both a discussion is good on a forum, but I would like to bring this one back on to topic or let it fade away.


 

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

...or let it fade away.

Fursuit Cthulhu approves.


(Bunny Shoggoth would probably approve, but is clearly distracted by something.)