Fools rush in where Drow should fear to tread

[Dat]

Morgy: Come to the spire, doomed characters like mine are welcome and given professional counciling - or torture, one of the two. 

[morgalahan]

At the very least I'm part drow, so I should have a greater chance at avoiding the torture, or postponing it somewhat. At least you're not undead...if the lich had made you undead AS WELL as all the rest there's no chance that those at the Spire would have given you a chance to explain yourself. You would have been destroyed. It's a bit of a pickle really, since my cleric would be inclined to turn first and ask questions later. I'm assuming that she wouldnt be able to auto-detect that my tiefling was now a vampire, so it's possible for Larai'el to try and explain herself first...but yeah...At least if you were with the Lich you'd be treated like an equal.

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

...but yeah...At least if you were with the Lich you'd be treated like an equal.

Watching a high-paragon tier style Undead Wizard treat Rapple Dapple Dabble, a level 3 (slightly cowardly?) Hobgoblin fighter as an Equal was, I will admit, one of the funniest things I have ever, ever encountered.

[morgalahan]

Indeed, I do not think our erstwhile hobgoblin warlord quite knew how to take it.

[Dat]

...and why would he know how to take it. He's been under peoples thumbs for so long that having someone treat him as an equal let alone a friend (from another life) was something else. This was and is why it is so hard for my fighter to betray such an aquaintance.

As for being cowardly, what kind of coward walks into a drow fortress and announces that their enemy wants him to help capture the place and that he was his friend? What kind of coward says to a drows face that he's still considering turning traitor? - My coward. 

[morgalahan]

Cowardice is not to be confused with stupidity my friend. Admitting to a drow priestess of Lolth who enjoys torture as her hobby, and a ruthless drow commander that you are still considering betraying them might be classified as stupidity as opposed to bravery. It's nothing personal, but you currently present yourself as a potential threat. You should probably be a bit more discreet and play up the fact that you look to your superior for instruction in all things and did not want to risk endangering the Spire by giving a definite yes or no to the Lich. Not yet at least. There is also the possibility of being a double agent.

[Dat]

His actions were not stupidity because he thought he would be valuable to the drow alive. He also doesn't want to betray them.

My char has no plans to go anywhere, he knows he's at the complete mercy of the drow, but he also thinks he's valuable to them because of his relationship with the liche. He has no plans to directly betray either side, but will do as the drow tell him because he wishes to live. So yes i do look to my superior (grudgingly).

[morgalahan]

lol, by double agent I meant that he could work for the drow, and pretend he was working for the lich. As the lich's trusted equal and former adventuring companion from another life, it has no reason to suspect you of duplicity, right?

But yeah, I suppose my attitude is linked to my character's attitude, and that of drow in general. She thinks you're hobgoblin is an idiot for not TAKING the lich's offer, and for returning to the Spire and more or less telling us outright that you're still thinking of working with the lich. That's stupidity. You need to be a bit more clear on your intentions

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

...and why would he know how to take it. He's been under peoples thumbs for so long that having someone treat him as an equal let alone a friend (from another life) was something else. This was and is why it is so hard for my fighter to betray such an aquaintance.

As for being cowardly, what kind of coward walks into a drow fortress and announces that their enemy wants him to help capture the place and that he was his friend? What kind of coward says to a drows face that he's still considering turning traitor? - My coward. 

To be fair, Dude, up until the moment Rapple left the spire on that last mission, there were only, oh, Three people in the entire place who officially outranked him. Everyone else was either at least an equal, or obliged to look up to and obey him. I don't think he's quite so subjugated as you seem to think.

And if he's come up through the Hobgoblin ranks, he'd have literally squads full of friends, given the closeness of military types and the idolising of comradery. That guy who you tried to leave behind facing the goblins, after the cave-in? Probably grew up with you, knew you since you were a pup. You and he excelled in life, and made it to the rank of Seargent, but you'd have likely been close to everyone in your old squad, and it's quite reasonable to expect you are still frequently in touch with any that weren't stationed in the Spire.

If they were stationed in the spire, then any such friends are Dead. Directly because of the Lich.

And why else would a Hobgoblin consider turning traitor at all, except because of an unmanly fear of death? To desert ones colleagues in the face of unsurmountable odds is to take a knife to their backs!

THIS IS A FILM ABOUT HOBGOBLINS.

[Dat]

OMG Dave! How could you die in a pool of your own puke after eating rage drake?!! *sobs* *blows hankerchief*

[morgalahan]

You give an essentially evil race so much credit Mr. Tiki. I doubt it's quite like you describe. All my experience of hobgoblins indicates militaristic, but still self serving. They would probably have a 'the weak die, the strong survive' attitude. I don't think Rapple would be too inclined to care about his deceased companion, he died because he was not strong enough to survive. They both at the rage drake, Rapple survived and is therefore strong and deserving of life. The other one died and was therefore weak and beneath notice. Honour and militaristic attitudes aside, the hobgoblin race is still generally evil in their outlook. You may get a few Drizzt like individuals who break the mold, but they'd be so few and far between that they wouldnt figure much.

[EvilGinger]

if you know any thing about "Spartans" then both evil and stupid fit very well

 Ginger

 

[Snakes in the Tiki Lounge]

You give an essentially evil race so much credit Mr. Tiki. I doubt it's quite like you describe. All my experience of hobgoblins indicates militaristic, but still self serving. They would probably have a 'the weak die, the strong survive' attitude. I don't think Rapple would be too inclined to care about his deceased companion, he died because he was not strong enough to survive. They both at the rage drake, Rapple survived and is therefore strong and deserving of life. The other one died and was therefore weak and beneath notice. Honour and militaristic attitudes aside, the hobgoblin race is still generally evil in their outlook. You may get a few Drizzt like individuals who break the mold, but they'd be so few and far between that they wouldnt figure much.

Alignment is meaningless.

[Dat]

I so want to burn the alignment pages on my 3.5 Players handbook right now. - Does that make me a 'malefactor' or a 'destroyer'? 

[morgalahan]

'Honour and militaristic attitudes aside, the hobgoblin race is still generally evil in their outlook. You may get a few Drizzt like individuals who break the mold, but they'd be so few and far between that they wouldn't figure much.'

It's not about alignment. So, according to you the drow are a happy fluffy race who just like being bad? Alignment is a game mechanic. An evil outlook is not lawful evil, neutral evil and chaotic evil, it's the way they think and act. They are NOT good. They wouldn't be inclined to save puppies, pay their taxes, follow the rules, help little old ladies across the street. The hobgoblins are similar, but they may be more inclined to obey rules. They WOULD possibly save a puppy, but only if ordered to do so by a superior. Never on their own. The problem is that you base too much of your argument on 'alignment' and less on what the race would actually be like. Reading the books paints these races in the light of the realistic. If you want me to pull up real world references, Ginger's spartans are a good one, they were NOT nice people. The mongolians under Genghis Khan, the romans under Julius Caeser, the Persians unde Xerxes, the Nazis under Hitler. Now, if you want to get esoteric on me, and say 'evil is a point of view' then perhaps you should interview the dwarven survivers of the latest hobgoblin raid.

Alignment is meaningless.

Did I once, at any time, type the word 'alignment'?